Question: I have a Colt 32 W.C.F., Patent Sept. 19, 1871; July 2, 72; Jan. 19, 75.It's serial number is #208589.This wepon is a single action revolver, with three screws on the Oposite-Ejector side. One Screw is larger than the other two equal sized. Original hard wood grips with the colt emblem. There is even a leather piece with it, with the stencil, F. J. Villascusa, Tuson, A.T. Would you be so kind as to tell me what i have? There is along family story about it, in 1880, my great, great, great uncle found this weapon on a dead man (or great great great uncle killed him) in Arizona territory. It has been in the family ever since. Anything you could send me I would appreciate it. The gun is not really for sale, unless it is worth more to somebody else than me. Thanking you in advance,,,Isn't the internet a wonderful thing. Mike
Answer: I just hate to burst your bubble, but your single action wasn't made until the early 1900's. I think the story about how the gun was found is an exaggeration. If the gun has wood grips, they are not correct for the model you have, your gun came with hard rubber grips. There was no emblem on the wooden grips, so they was something done by someone by hand. Interesting, but Colt never did it for wood. And if I am not mistaken, a .32 WCF stamped on a barrel would even be a later barrel than the gun itself. I don't have my colt book here, so I may be mistaken on that one. It seems what you have is a put together Colt single action from the early 1900's, in a caliber that is very undesireable. The stenciled name is meaningless, because the rest of the story is not true. Sorry, you never told me the barrel length, I would guess that the barrel had been cut, which would also hurt value.
editor.
Question: We have a rifle that we received from my wife's dad (he is no longer alive, or we would ask him). I was wondering if you could tell me something about it. It is a U. S. Springfield rifle, US model 1873 (I found this located on the top of the door that you lift to load it). Right behind the door, by the hammer that you cock, is another number - 223750. The rifle measures 52 inches from end to end. The metal barrel is three feet from tip to hammer. It has a metal rod on the underneath side that removes to clean the barrel (the rod measures 35 1/2 inches). On the top of the butt of the rifle, it has the letters "US" stamped in metal. Under the rifle, 4 1/2 inches from the back of the trigger guard, is a circle with the letter "P " in it that has been stamped into the wood. Also stamped into the wood, on the side of the rifle above the trigger, is what looks like " SMP 1883" in a squared circle. There are three hooks for straps on the underneath side also. It has an aim that you raise up to adjust. The aim has numbered markings similar to a ruler. Between the aim and where you load it, are the letters " V P" and an eagle head stamped in the metal. Also stamped there, but separate from the eagle head, is the letter " R " and a '" P ". On the metal band just past the aim, is the letter " U " stamped. It has a hammer on the right side that you pull back to cock. It pulls back three clicks. It strikes a pin located on top of the door that you open to load it. The door has a lever on the right side that you lift up to open to load it. The door from the hinge to the pin measures three inches. We have an 8mm Mauser casing that is too small for it. It looks like an old flintlock rifle. It is in good shape and has no rust and could be fired if we had the ammo. We have looked at the local bookstores but could not find any information on it. We would appreciate any info you can provide.
Answer: What a relief to get a truly detailed description, you cannot believe how many, "I gotta Colt, what is it?" questions I get. You have a Trapdoor Springfield Rifle, your model came in a .45/70 caliber, and was the primary military issued rifle from the late 1860's-1880's. From your description your gun sounds correct and in very good condition. There are several in similiar condition listed on the Post 1865 Long Gun pages for sale, they are retailing between $500-$600. The cartridges are still available today, and if the gun has a very good bore, they make popular shooters. About 550,000 of the different models were manufactured during the Indian War period. That's about all there is to know.
Editor
Question: I am just getting into civil war collecting and want to go into firearms. I want to buy a musket. I recently stopped by an antique dealer and saw a musket for sale. When I first saw it, it looked like a Springfield and when I asked him what kind it was, he told me that it was called a Need'um conversion. He said that in the later stages of the war, the government had the muzzleloaders changed to breachloaders. He priced this at 650.00 . Does this make any sense and if it does is this a good deal? Thank you. required =
Answer: What you were told is not quite true. Needham Conversions are a post Civil War conversion from percussion to cartridge. They are somewhat obscure and unless you are an expert I strongly advise against purchasing one. For this reason, after the war thousands of percussion rifles existed. They could be bought for pennies. All kinds of alterations were made to convert Civil War Percussion rifles to shotguns, single shots of all kinds and what ever. Most of these conversions are worthless. It would be far more common for an individual to put together some kind of monstrosity, and call it a rare Needham Conversion. Than to actually find one of these rifles, since only 4,000 of them were made.
The number of people collecting these post war conversions is 1/20th of the people that collect Civil War firearms, so even though they are rarer than Civil War Percussion Rifles, not many people want them so they sell for less than Civil War guns. Buy from a reputable dealor, a standard Civil War 1861 Rifled musket. Until you learn a lot more about the guns, the chances are you will get skinned unless you do.
Editor
Situation: I was recently asked to try and sell an antique Colt Single Action Army, that was claimed to have been the property of Curly Bill Brocious, a famous member of the Clanton Gang from Tombstone, Arizona. Documentation included the gun, a renickled, cut barrel military marked Colt Single Action shipped in 1880. A letter detailing how a man by the name of Sandy King obtained the gun, the letter was in Sandy King's handwriting and dated 1920. Two affidavites affirming the letter was true and attesting to how the gun was found. It was found in a drift of a mine that Sandy King had worked and where he was eventually killed. All of the above seemed indisputable.
Here was the problem, the gun was shipped to the military in 1880. Curly Bill was killed in 1881, why would Sandy King cut down the barrel and renickel a gun that would have been given to him from a famous outlaw in almost new condition at the time he received it. The second big problem was that the hand written letter, stated the gun was used to kill a sheriff of Tombstone, (Bill White I think). The problem was that the sheriff was killed in 1879, about 9 months before the gun was shipped. The man owning the gun told me it was well known that the Colt records were often mistaken. All I can say is, that statement would only be made by someone not familiar with the world of gun collecting.
Conclusion: It is pretty obvious that the gun was not owned by Curly Bill Brocious, (which would have made the gun worth about $100,000), but it seems very convincing that Sandy King owned the gun. Though, he is not as notorious as Curly Bill, he is still a known outlaw that associated with the Clanton Gang. The gun would probably be worth between $4,000-$12,000. Much of this information came with the help of the men who operate the auctions of famous antique firearms at Butterfield & Butterfield in San Francisco.
editor
Question: I visited your site for the first time a few days ago. It's great! I plan > > to register soon. > > > > In another matter, when I first visited your site I saw an ad for a Civil > > War sword which the seller claimed was a high quality repro which was > sold > > as original by the former House of Swords and Militaria. I was big fan of > > this direct sales catalog and never got a full explanation of why then > > abruptly went out of business. I've heard some rumors over the years and > > then I spotted the ad on your site. I bought some stuff from House of > > Swords and now I'm wondering if the items are right or just great > > knock-offs. Can you help me with some info or can you put me in touch > with > > someone who can? I didn't see that ad when I visited your site today, by > > the way. > > > > Hope to hear from you soon.
Answer: The House of Swords went broke and the owner went to jail. He sold thousands of fake swords, metals you name it. Almost everything he sold was faked, that is why the deals were so good. Sorry to break your bubble, but this is well known through out the collecting community. He is the big reason there are so many fake Confederate Swords floating around today. I would guess 2 fakes for every original.
editor
Question: I have a friend that just bought a pistol. It says on the cylinder Warner Patent 1857. It is supposed to be a .30 caliber rimfire. What can you tell me?
Answer: Around 1,000 of these small .30 caliber 5 shot revolvers were made. Thought the patent date is 1857, is is unlikely that any of them were made early enough to see action in the Civil War. It was felt by some that they were converted to cartridge revolvers, but they were made as an original breechloading cartridge gun. There is nothing really notable about them, in good condition Flayderman's values them at $150.00
editor
Question: I would like any information you have on the following pistol. In particular when it might have been patiented or manufactored. 1. cap and ball thats looks like a 1851 navy colt 2. 36 caliber 3. 7 1/2 inch barrel 4. stamped on top of the barrel- Metropolitan Arms Co. New York 5. Serial Number - 6567 6. I can see no other stamps 7. Wooden handles with no chips or breaks, few dings 8.The serial number is on all the parts 9. The barrel has a few pits 10. octagon barrel
Answer: Metropolitan Arms Co, began the production of their copy of the Colt 1851 Navy after the Colt Factory burned. They were manufactured from 1864-1866. Only about 6,000 of these guns were made. They are considered a secondary military pistol because no military contracts were known. They are interesting primarily because there were so few manufactured. Their production ended with the end of the Civil War and the fact that Colt aggressively persued any violators to their patends. Though rarer, their value is no more than a Colt Navy in comperable condition. In good condition Flayderman's quotes $700.
editor
Question: My husband has a revolver that his great grandfather supposedly carried in his doctor's bag during the Civil War.
In 1967 we submitted a request for Grolier Information Services to tell us about this gun. They sent this information: "Cooper Navy Revolver, cal. .36, 5-shot, D.A.; 5.875-inch octagonal, rifled, blued barrel marked 'Cooper Firearms Mfg. Co., Frankford Phila Pa. Pat. Jan. 7, 1851, Apr. 25, 1854, Sep. 4, 1860, Sep. 1, 1863, Sep. 22, 1863'. Total length 10.75 inches. Weight 1 lb., 12 oz. Brass cone front sight. V-notch rear sight in hammer lip. Blued cylinder, 1.625 inches long, rebated like Colt Army Model 1860 revolver. Silver-plated, bronze back strap and oval trigger guard. Frame, trigger, and part of loading lever casehardened in mottled colors. Black walnut grips. By removing a wedge from the left, the barrel and cylinder can be removed. Except for the cylinder, this revolver superficially resembles the Colt Model 1851 Navy Revolver. $100 $150." (Ref. Chapel, Charles E., "The Gun Collector's Handbook of Values", Coward-McCann, Inc., New York, pp 54-55)
Actually the barrel is only 5 inches long and we cant's be sure about the silver plate. The # "12250" is stamped on the barrel, the cylinder and the bottom of the grip. This gun is not operational because of the worn cylinder.
Can you give us more up to date information on this gun and a price range suggested for present day value?
Answer: J.M. Cooper is a secondary military percussion pistol. They were made in 5" or 6" barrel lengths. Your serial number makes it a second model. They are reasonably common and because they were not made to military contract have far less collector interest than martially marked pistols. It is possible that the gun was carried as you described, though the serial number would put it in the last year or so of the war. The fact that it does not work would rate it in fair condition. In good condition Flayderman's Guide values the gun at $300, yours would not be rated as high.
editor
Question: I have an 1860 Spencer carbine in 95% metal and probably 85 > to 90% wood, original condition. The bar for the sling ring > is broken and the ring is missing. The carbine is very > tight and has a very good bore. The serial # is 33,343. Is > there a list available where I can find the date of > manufacture? Family history has it that it was a captured > Yankee piece(aren't they all?) and carried by a friend of > the family, and then given to our family after the war. I > hadn't kept up with the value of these guns for several > years, but lately have noticed some high values being > placed on them. Any best guess estimates on the value of > this one?
I asked for all markings and length of barrel, he added: The barrel length from receiver to muzzle is 20 3/8 inches. Case hardening is visible on 95 of all areas and barrel is in almost perfect original finish. The wood has a three scruffs on it, maybe the size of a nickel, but has never been refinshed. There are no inspectors marks that I can find.
Answer: I asked for a detail of all markings, but they were omited. I have to assume that the markings are weak or at least the "Model 1865" that would be on the top of the barrel is not legible. With that understanding, I have to judge that the gun has been reblued and recased. It doesn't make sense that a near mint Spencer Carbine would have a broken saddle ring bar. Also, the bore should be in similiar condition as the outside of the gun, which if original would be Fine to Excellent. So conclusion #1 is that the gun was refinished. The Model 1860, the one used in the Civil War had a 22" barrel. The 20" model was a post Civil War model for the Spencer. So conclusion #2 is that the story of how it was obtained is from someone's imagination. The value for a post Civil War Spencer, that has been entirely reblued and recased, $700-$800, max. That is retail, a dealor would not pay that much.
editor
Question: I recently inherited a large amount of Springfield rifles. I have gained a large amount of literature on the majority of the weapons that I have collected. The one rifle that I am most intrigued with is a Trapdoor Springfield rifle 45-70 Cal., serial # 503001, model 1884. This gun is in excellent condition. I am curious about the historical significance of this firearm. It truly is a magnificent piece of craftsmanship. I can tell you that the weapon was manufactured between January and March of 1891.
Answer: Almost 570,000 of these guns were made in several variations between 1873 and 1893. They were the primary military issued rifle and carbine of the period. The military choose them over the very popular Winchester Repeating Rifles. I haven't been able to determine from reading all the reasons the military didn't want the Winchester, but they liked the Springfield because simplicity of the mechanism. Parts were easily interchangable in the field. A skilled marksman could get of 5 accurate shots in less than a minute. They were also far more accurate at longer distances than the Winchester.
Today, they are one of the favorites of antique collectors who like to shoot their firearms. They are readily available and would retail between $500-$600 in the condition you state. Carbines are worth about twice rifles The serial number should give you the model with a round rod bayonette
editor
Question:To begin, I would like to compliment you on your terrific Web Page. I must have browsed it for an hour the other day and am fascinated by much of the information it holds. I was wondering what you might be able to tell me about a Sharps 1859 that I've inherited. I'm looking for information on it's history and like most folks, it's monetary value.
The weapon's serial number is 11623. I has a leather wrapped barrel, fixed front site and an adjustable rear. The trigger gaurd on this model also acts as a lever to open a sliding breach. The action opens about 1 3/4'' and the barrel length is 24''. The hammer is manually cocked with a sliding safety to the left of the hammer. Unfortunately, I do not know the caliber but the 1/2'' diameter muzzle opening my give the right person a clue.
The weapon has a formed, brass shoulder plate on the stock and appears to be original equipment. There is one sling loop mounted on the stock. The weapon seems to function smoothly and correctly from what I can tell. However, the leather wrapped on the barrel is showing some age but is fully intact. The stock has a few dings but also appears to be the original finish.
I hope that I have provided enough information to you. There was only one book in my local library that mentioned it briefly.
Answer: What you have is a Sharps & Hankins Carbine. These guns were used on board military vessels and not anywhere near as common as the standard Sharps Carbine. The only problem is that there is not nearly the interest in them that there is in a Sharps Carbine. The leather barrel wrap was obviously there to protect the hand of the man firing the gun, since the guns have no wooden forearm. I would also guess that they were wrapped to protect the barrel from salt spray, since the carbines were typically stored in racks on the deck and were exposed to sea water spray. They do not get anywhere near the price of a Sharps nor do they sell as quickly. Flayderman's prices the gun without the leather wrap at $350 in good condition and $550 with the leather wrap in the same condition.
Jim Supica,
"Standard Catalog of Smith & Wesson: Jim is a nationally known
antique weapons dealor, the owner of Old Town Station Dispatch, a periodical
that specializes in the sale of antique firearms. Jim also conducts frequent
auctions of antique firearms. His book mentioned above is 256 pages with
270 photos. It has been well reviewed: "comprehensive & well organized"
--Guns Magazine . . . . "The complete book of S&W handguns"
-- guns and Weapons for Law Enforcement. Jim can be found at OldTownSta@aol.com.
Question: I Have a Smith & Wesson Model 1888 ..38 Cal. 5 shot Barrel 83m Action "R" Ser# 385708
Could you please tell me some info and approximate value. kirka@interlynx.net
Answer: I'm not familiar with the term "Model 1888", nor do I know for sure what you mean by "Barrel 83m" or "Action R".
If what you have is a .38 cal. S&W top-break double action revolver, you have what is common called the S&W .38 DA. By the serial number you report, it would be the .38 DA 4th Model, and was probably made in the late 1890's.
The .38 DA was first introduced in 1880 and produced through 1911, with 5 different model variations recognized by collectors. It is chambered for the .38 S&W cartridge, but one of your vintage would have been made for black powder cartridges rather than modern smokeless powder cartridges. The most common barrel length is 3-1/4", although others were offered. It was available in nickel or blue finishes, usually with hard rubber grips.
Value of course depends on conditon. I sell quite a few of these through my mail order catalog, "Old Town Station Dispatch", in the $135 to $225 range. This is a bit higher than just a couple years ago, since these have come in to vogue with Cowboy Action Shooters for the "Pocket Pistol" class competition.
Jim Supica, Old Town Station, Ltd., Antique Arms
Question: I have a S&W model No2 in .32 rimfire, serial number 28108 can you tell the year of manufacture and anything else about it?
Answer: The only way to know for certain the date of manufacture is to get a factory letter from the S&W Factory Historian, c/o S&W, 2100 Roosevelt Ave, Springfield MA. There is a $20 charge for this service. Some earlier records are spotty, and there's a remote chance your gun may not be listed.
Having said that, we can guess an approximate production date of 1864. The 6 shot Model Two "Old Army", while never a military issue arm, was very popular as a "privately purchased" sidearm for Union soldiers, and there is a reasonable chance that yours was carried in the late Civil War. The 6 shot Model 2 represented a milestone in the evolution from cap and ball to metallic cartridge revolvers.
Jim Supica, Old Town Station Antique Arms.
Question: I have just inherited an antique pistol from my grandpa and I was wondering what it was worth if anything ( I really don't think so). I apologize in advance for my lack of accurate description, but it comes from a great lack of knowledge. Thank you very much for any time you spend and I appreciate it greatly. It is about 7 inches in length over all and It has a five shot revolver cartridge. A star type thing pops up to pull the spent shells out as you break the gun in half to reload it. It says ".38 S&W cartg" down the top of the barrel. The gun breaks in to buy pulling up on a lever type thing where the rear sight is located. It is not in good shape, It is quite rusty, it has no firing pin, but it does try to rotate when you try to pull the extremely loose trigger. Thank you, Jason
Answer: Jason, a generic description of you gun would be a ".38 DA Top-Break Revolver", describing the caliber, mechanism, and type. However without any further information we cannot identify it further. This type of revolver was made in great numbers from the 1880's through the early 1900's continuing in production by many firms to and past WWII, altho it's popularity declined with the introduction of the swing out cylider "hand ejector" type revolvers around the turn of the century.
Single Action (or "SA") versions were also made by some firms, but they are less frequently encountered. Often the SA versions have a "spur trigger", while the DA versions have a traditional triggerguard arrangement.
It is most likely chambered for the .38 S&W cartridge (NOT the same as the more modern .38 Special). While the .38 S&W is still manufactured today, I would suggest you not shoot your gun until and unless it is positively identified and checked out for safety by a gunsmith. While some guns of this pattern were of outstanding quality, others were quite cheaply made.
It is unusual that there are no other identifying markings on your revolver. Did you check the top and both sides of the barrel? Did you look for logos on the grips? While some manufacturers actually hid their identity by marking their more inexpensive products with "Trade Names" that did not identify the maker, it is odd to find one with no markings whatsoever. From your description of the opening lever, I wonder if maybe it is an Iver Johnson product.
Jim Supica, Old Town Station Antique Arms.
Question: I have a 32 revolver. On barrel it has: Smith & Wesson Springfield Mass. U.S.A. PAT'D JAN.24,65 JULY 11 65 AUG. 24, 69 REISSUE JULY 25, 71 MAY 11, 80 JAN 3, 82 Could you tell me anything about this gun and it's value. Ray
Answer: Ray, on these i.d., questions, it helps to have a bit more complete description of the gun. Here, by the patent markings, I'm guessing that it's a top-break double action 5-shot revolver rather than a Hand Ejector or top-break single action? If so it is most likely what is called a S&W .32 Double Action (or .32 DA). If you sent the serial number, I could tell you which of the 5 model variations it was, and this could make a GREAT deal of difference in the value.
If the serial number is under 32, it could be the very rare & valuable .32 DA 1st Model, and potentially worth a few thousand dollars in ANY condition. For the more common models, of course condition makes a BIG difference in the value. Most .32 DA tend to change hands at prices between $100 & $250. It takes a really rough one to bring less, and a REALLY nice one to bring more. They're more popular nowadays than they used to be, thanks mainly to Cowboy Action Shooting's "Pocket Pistol" class.
I'm assuming that your gun has a traditional exposed hammer? If it has an enclosed hidden hammer & a grip safety lever on the backstrap, it's a S&W .32 New Departure (also known as the .32 Safety Hammerless or Lemonsqueezer). Values for common model " 'squeezers" tend to be similar to those for .32 DA's.
Jim Supica, Old Town Station Antique Arms.
Tom LoPiano: Tom LoPiano is currently owner of Historical Investors Group, who collects, markets and performs research on historical Americana and fine Colt firearms. An expert on "historically-inscribed" weapons, Tom acquires arms for collectors, investors and institutions and provides historical research for museums, historical societies, collectors and genealogists.
Tom has been a long-time contributing editor to magazines such as Gun Report and Man at Arms and has authored articles on collecting historical arms ("Retracing Their Steps", Man at Arms, Nov., 1980 and "If That Old Gun Could Talk, Colt Collectors Assc., June ,1984, in addition to dozens of articles on specific historical weapons.
Located at 110 Lexington Way So., Milford, CT 06460 and has a gallery in New York City. Phone 203-877-9665. E-mail cwlopi@aol.com. New web site under construction.
Question: In "Sabres & Spurs," the regimental history of the First Rhode Island Cavalry (published in 1876), the author, Chaplain Frederic Denison writes that during the Civil War he wore a "captain's uniform... and carried a seven-barreled revolver."Any clues as to what this gun might have been? Could it have been a pepper box? And if so, who made one with seven shots? Appreciate any help or references I can get..
Answer: The reference to "7-barrelled" may allude to a percussion "pepperbox" revolver. Allen & Thurber, Blunt & Syms, William Marston and Robbins & Lawrence were three well-known manufacturers. Since all made models which included 6-shot versions, there may have been some confusion as in "ribbed" barrel versions you would have 7 "ribs" between 6 chambers, hence a "7-barrelled" look. Pepperbox revolvers were popular in the 1840's and 1850's, an old "holdover" may have been carried into the Civil War by this officer.
(See Chapters V-A and VII-B Flayderman's Guide to Antique American Firearms where these arms are discussed).
The second possibility is that the revolver was not a 7-barrelled one but a 7-shot revolver. The Moore Patent Firearms Co. manufactured a 7-shot cartridge revolver that was very popular with officers in CW. The "seven-shooter", as it was known was manufactured in Brooklyn, NY from 1861-63 (several thousand were made) until it lost a patent infringement to Smith & Wesson in 1863 and production stopped.
(See pg.398 of Flayderman's guide) and also 9/79 man at Arms article by Tom LoPiano entitled "Two of New York's Finest" about an inscribed Moore and its history)
Tom L.
Question: Is there any surefire way to identify a Confederate Griswold & Gunnison Revolver?
Answer: There is no "surefire" way to ascertain whether or not a Griswold & Gunnison revolver is authentic - other than part for part comparison with a "known" authentic specimen.
Like rare Colts and other valuable collector's firearms, Confederate weapons have been altered, reproduced and "fake", wholly or in part over the years.
If you have a specimen which you believe may be authentic, contact with an expert - whether it be dealer, arms collector, museum director/arms specialist is mandatory. Only a side by side comparison will tell for sure.
Should you have the ability to take clear, crisp close-up photos of your piece, showing all major markings and from all angles, I would be happy to examine the photos.
Thanks,
Tom L.
The Following Advertisement is appearing in the Classified Ads under Old West Collectibles, I have asked Tom to comment about the claim:
I thought I'd remind you of my collection of authentic, original photographs of famous historical figures of the Old West, including cowboys, gunslingers, outlaws, harlequins, and politicians. My collection of family heirlooms includes photographs of Cole Younger and his brothers Jim, Bob, and John; Belle Starr; Bob Ford; Eta Place; "Bloody Bill" Anderson; Mattie Silk; Julia Bulette; and Missouri Governor Thomas T. Crittendon, among many others. Prices range from $2,000-$10,000 for famous historical figures, and less for their family, friends, and associates, some of whom are nevertheless mentioned in history books. Unidentified women, some of them harlequins, may prove a bargain when their identities are discovered. (There was some subsequent correspondence that is referenced in the response below.)
Response: The owner of the above photos is no doubt an historian. He certainly has a vast amount of knowledge on the subject.However there is a lot of unsubstantiated remarks made by him in his communication with you. Anyone buying from him would need to be fully satisfied as to his claims.
He states that he was foster son to Cole Younger. If he is an historian, does he have family history which traces or ties him to Younger as a genealogist or family historian would certainly consider his first priority.
"NO authoritative person on James-Younger gang would dispute the authenticity". Can he provide a list of authorities? Younger's personal effects were returned to his family after capture. Certainly some documentation would have been made of this by authorities. "We don't have anything in writing claiming to be a Cole Younger family". "I'm the only one willing to identify our historical connection". "We don't need provenance because we are so publicly well-known to insiders of the family".
The problem is that he is not trying to sell to "insiders" but outsiders. He says that all photos (well-known) in publications do not credit or identify his family as owners or donors. That is a problem.
My opinion is that if the owner wishes to market these photographs he needs solid genealogical evidence to support his claim to be a descendent. If insiders are well aware of his family heritage then he should get signed and notarized affadavits from family members, town officals, etc. stating as such - as well as letters from authorities on subject (like a Tim Gordon) attesting to his identity and authenticity. I wonder if the owner has been charged by the family to market these items for them or is he sole owner of collection. For a collection to be around and well-known so long, it does not seem that the owner has one ounce of evidence in support of his claim. What evidence can he present to any buyer to "guaranty the accuracy of his identification"?
Finally, I would feel that the best way to capitalize on the potential great historical value of this seemingly "fantastic" collection is to sell it through a known auction house who will, if they receive the proper documentation (and should know any authority he mentions) - some firm such as Butterfield & Butterfield in San Francisco.
I am acquainted with a number of auction houses and would gladly refer him. There is also one dealer I know, Pahaska Books (Chris and Art Sowin) who I feel would be known as authorities on the subject.
Tom
Question: looking for historical information about the triplett and scott carbine. what date was it made and did it see use in the civil war.
Answer: The Triplett & Scott carbine was made by the Meriden Manufacturing Co. of Meriden, CT c. 1864-65. Total estimated quantity made was about 5000. It was a .50 cal rimfire repeater. It was manufactured with a 7-shot magazine tube in its butt. Made in two barrel lengths (30" round barrel-about 3,000 made and 22" round bbl - about 2,000 made). The shorter barrel being the scarcer variety.
The carbine was stamped on its tang "Triplett & Scott/Patent Dec.6, 1864", on left side of receiver "Meriden Man'fg Co./Meriden, Ct with serial no. on right side. Marked "KENTUCKY" left side of breech.
A contract for 5,000 Triplett & Scotts was executed January 2, 1865 with the State of Kentucky to arm 5,000 Home Guard troops mustered into service to protect the supply lines of the Union ASrmy under Gen. Wm. T. Sherman, then engaged in the Atlanta Campaign. They were received too late for service in the Civil War.
These carbines are often seen in fine condition and with line cracks inm the buttstocks, which were weakened by the methos inbedding the tube in the stock.
Question: I have been asked by a friend to get some expert advice on these two guns. Can you help A .31 calibre copy of a new model Remington Pocket Pistol, with a full brass frame. Stamped 1 on the barrel, frame and cylinder, with "Augusta Machine Works" on top of the barrel. The butt strap is stamped 'AU1'. The condition is very good. It has presentation plates identifying "Col Asphaene West of Georgia State Guard" on the grips. The second is marked Schneider & Glassick and is of .36 calibre. However it has a brass frame, steel trigger guard and a shortened Colt barrel, marked "Schneider & Glassick Memphis Tennessee". On the left side of the barrel above the wedge is marked "B28" and a "W" inspector mark on the left of the frame. The bottom of the grip strap is stamped "2 Va Cav. Rammer is more stout than Colt type. From all the books I have studied I think they are too good to be true, but my friend would like a second opinion Thanks in anticipation
Answer: Regarding the two items in questions, I would be very wary of either without much inspection.
The .31 cal. Remington pocket, manufactured in 1858-60, quantity about 1000-1500. Your questions states that it is a .31 cal. "copy". I would say it would be highly unlikely that a CS-marked "prototype" would be found of a Remington pocket model. All known CS-manufactured revolvers were of the heavier hitting Colt 1851 Navy, dragoon, or similar .36 and up revolvers. Any specimens of Remington pocket pistols would probabaly carry a Southern dealer stamping (not Augusta Machine Works). If a prototype, machining would probably be much cruder than Remington. I would have to inspect closely manufacture of weapon, barrel stamping (to see if Remington address may have been ground off) and the inscription itself. If the gun is not right, the inscription, too, may be spurious.
Regarding the Scheider & Glassick, it seems like it may be a "composite" revolver but again, I would have to inspect it. A brass frame may denote a Griswold & Gunnison manufacture. Steel trigger guard may come from another imitation Colt revolver, or may be a Colt steel triggerguard. The barrel may be a Colt barrel.
Disassembly and very close inspection defiinitely are needed to determine the authenticity of such weapons.
Tom Burness, Tom has been a collector and dealer in Antique Firearms for the last 30 years. He has been a fixture at all the major antique firearm shows on the West Coast for that entire time. Though his range of knowledge extends through most weapons of the 1800's, his area of chief interest are guns of the Old West. Henry Rifles, All other lever action Winchesters, Colt Single Actions, Big Bore Single Shot Rifles and several types of collectible Shotguns, specifically, Colt and Winchester Shotguns. Tom has been a good friend and helped me get started into collecting. Tom can be reached at tomburness@foothill.net.
Question: I recently acquired a Winchester bolt action 45-70 "Hotchkiss patent" model >1883. I know nothing about these guns and have never seen one at a show. I >was wondering if you could give me a little history about these guns and a >rough estimate of it's value. It appears to be a military gun athough it has >no markings to indicate it. There is a number carved in the buttstock but >it's not factory, #144, This gun is well used but it's all there, the >rifling is worn but is clean all the way through the bore. All screws are >clean and sharp as if it's never been apart and worked on by a novice. The >receiver is very tight, this gun is a shooter. It has moderate pitting all >over and the wood is well dented and scarred. The condition looks like many >Springfield trapdoors I've seen that has been handled by the military. This >gun is four feet long, the barrel is about 28.5 inches. Telescopic sights, >two barrel bands and sling swivels. The reciever has a lever on the left and >right side of the bolt. One is a safety and one is possibly a magazine stop. > The magazine is located in the buttstock. It is marked 45-70 on the barrel >behind the sight and in front of the sight it is marked" Manufactured by >Winchester Repeating Arms Company, New Haven Conn. U.S.A." Behind the >triggerguard it is marked "Pat. Oct 16 1860 June 25 1872 July 28 1879 and >under B.B. Hotchkiss pat's Aug. 17 1869. Serial number 81315 stamped in >front of the triggerguard and Model 1883 stamped behind the bolt. Any >information concerning the use or value of this gun would be greatly >appreciated. > >Ivan >
Answer: >Greetings Ivan, Your Winchester-Hotchkiss was made in three distinctly different models between the years 1879-1899, and yours is near the end of production (since total made was 84,555), therefore obviously a 3rd Model. They were made in sporting models, both rifles and carbines, and in "military" configuration, as yours is and which made up the bulk of their production. A good many were likely sold abroad as they do not show up at gunshows with any frequency,much like the Winchester 1895 Russian Model rifle/musket which all went to Russia and very rarely seen at U.S. gunshows. Benjamin Hotchkiss, who designed this action, sold his patents to Winchester in 1877, and when production began in 1879, this became Winchesters first venture into the bolt-actions as well as the first with a buttstock magazine. And while not a commonly encountered weapon, the Hotchkiss never has enjoyed the popularity of its lever-actioned brothers, and consequently not heavily collected unless having military mkgs and in "better than average" condition. They are a popular caliber, however, and so can still be quite useable with proper loaded ammunition, and much can be based on that fact. It is hard to accurately describe something unseen, but a good "guess-timate" would be in the $400-$600 range for a well-used original gun at a retail price. A super minty one, unfired condition only brings about $2200-$2500 for a civil- ian 3rd Model. Hope that sheds a bit of light into your particular rifle, Ivan, and know that at the least you have the one of the first of the bolt actions made by Winchester..and likely has seen PLENTY of frontier use in the winning of the West.
Ivan, I just noticed that you mentioned this Hotchkiss as having "tele- scopic sight". Since these did not come with a scope,this could either hurt this guns value,if a more modern scope and mounts, or actually could immensely help the gun,if the scope is a period scope and mounts. It is of paramount importance that you look the scope over very carefully for any markings/makers name,and the mounts as well. Also measure the total length of the scope tube and describe how it is mounted, and does the rifle have the standard bbl sights as well? If, and that is a big "IF", the scope is a period installed, or better yet, a factory installed scope(which will be able to be proved by "lettering" the rifle at the Cody museum), this could raise the value into the thousands of dollars, since scarcer makers of original older scopes can, in themselves, themselves can be worth $500-2500 with the mounts. Best of collecting, Tom Burness
Question: what can you tell me about the following gun; >i'm told it was made in phila, pa circa 1840. >it is a .36 cal, with a 35 inch long barrel, (the barrel is >hex shapped, except last 21 inch is round.) it has a walnut >stock, with german silver nose cao, patch box, and butt plate. >the lock is chrome or nickel plated, and has some engraving. >the only identification on the gun is: "JOS.H.GOLCHER" on the >lock, and "6 22 38" stamped on the underside on the barrel. >i would appreciate what ever you can tell me about this gun, >and who made it. thank you, steve
Answer: From what you have given so far, it would seem that you have either a full- stock percussion "Kentucky Rifle"..which most being Pennsylvanian or Ohioan in actuality, or you have a half-stock Sporting Rifle (as you did not state which) and either was likely made circa 1835-1870 after which the cartridge weapons pushed percussions into obsolescence. Golcher mainly made locks and sold them thru jobbers,trading posts,small retail gunsmiths,etc. The locks were purchased by individuals and gunsmiths to build rifles (bbls and trigger groups were also marketed this way) and the end result being some modest weapons on one hand, and some pretty "artistic" ones on the other, having lots of woodworkings, inlays, and such. The common size bore ranges from .32 to .45 for the Sporting Rifles, larger for Plains or Mountain Rifles. They were the ".30/30s" of this era, being used on squirrel to pretty large game,and even were carried into the Civil War as personal weapons. Very often the top rear bbl flat will have the name of the individual who actually assembled the rifle, assuming yours was an assembled rifle (which 90% usually are),but often are not. Usually they have doubleset triggers, somewhat fancy brass triggerguards, simple fixed sights, deep set crescent brass buttplates, and pinned or keyed forestocks. Many have patchboxes, either iron or brass and ranging from simple oval or round ones to radical fancy pierced brasswork ones. Barrels are usually full octagon, but 1/2 oct is also seen with regularity(like yours).
The #s under the bbl could be the actual ass'y date, but that seems unlikely since it would certainly take more than one day to build, unless all parts were already finished and ready to assemble. It seems more plausible this could be some date of importance to the owner vs gun...such as a birthday presentation or whatever. Lastly,the fullstocks are more valuable than the halfstocks for several reasons, not the least of which is that 50-75% of original fullstocks were cut down to halfstocks for convenience and/or repair, so fullstocks are quite a bit more scarce nowadays. Prices range by condition, quality of the gun itself when made, maker(if a known high quality gunmaker)and configuration. There's as wide a range in these as would be between a common 1977 Corvette in near junkyard condition versus a 1967 "big-block" 435HP Corvette Roadster in Class 1 condition if that is a good analogy. ..So to give an accurate guesstimate as to your gun would not be good to do without actually seeing it firsthand, but the majority fall into a $375-$875 range in average condition..assuming they have no historical background that is proven and documented, in which case all the "rules" go out the window...... Trust this will be of some help to you, Steve, even if a bit vague.... Best regards, Tom Burness
Question:
I'm hoping you might help me in ascertaining the value of a long gun that >has been in my family for nearly 200 years. (At age 60, I now have it.) >I've had some recent financial problems and must part with it, so if you >know of any possible buyers...please let me know. > >The rifle says Ketland & Co. on the name plate. Barrel is octagonal about >46" long. Weight is about 12 pounds. The wood and brass plates are all in >beautiful condition. > >When my great-grandfather Thomas P. McLaughlin died in 1898, at the age of >86, the New Kensington, PA newspaper had a lengthy article concerning his >life. Nearly 3 paragraphs were devoted to his rifle. His father used the >rifle in the War of 1812. A part of the newspaper story follows... > > "He owned a flint lock rifle and in it he had one of the most valuable > possessions a man could have at that early date. The rifle is >still owned by the family and for the past year has been on >exhibition in the Keystone office. If is of the "Long Tom" variety >and of large calibre and weighs almost twelve pounds. So >valuable was it considered in those early days that the owner was >offered 100 acres of the ground on which New Kensington now stands in >exchange for it. It was refused, however." > >The rest of the newspaper article describes a time when he "borrowed" the >rifle at age 15 to go after a deer. (Quite an interesting story.) > >-------------------------------------- >William G. McLaughlin
Answer: Dear Mr.McLaughlin, First off,let me offer my hopes and best wishes that whatever circumstance that has you considering selling this fine rifle will rectify itself in some other way. It would be very sad that such a family heirloom should be sold out of the immediate family,and my very first suggestion would be to contact every member to see if they could purchase it. Now as to the gun itself; Ketland was a very large and prolific gun maker in England of medium-high grade weapons of all sizes,types,but best known for mili- tary size "holster pistols" that were carried (usually in pairs) during the pre- Revolution period well into the 1800s. Being as I cannot see your rifle,I must assume it is totally Ketland made,and would be the equivilant of a fine sporting rifle today,commercially produced. However,Ketland also made many "trade parts" of which early British settlers in America would buy and assemble their own guns and to their own needs/designs,some of which can be more valuable than the fully original. Now as to value itself,this is based almost entirely on condition usually,but in your case,also the long documented history of this rifle.It is of paramount importance that all pertinant written articles/documents are saved,copied,and notarized(as needed)to insure surviving historical prominance...and assuming the rifle is in "very good" overall completely original condition,it likely is worth about $2000-2500 for the rifle,but with the providance could be worth several TIMES this much,depending on proven historical importance. Buyers will be mainly on the East Coast area where this gun spent its useful life,or to directly connected individuals,such as family members,museums in the area,etc. I suggest that you contact a large firearms auction house in the East, such as James Julia(and there are several others)to get their "feel" as to what it might bring.If your needs are such that a certain amm't is needed,then be sure a minimum selling price is put so the gun doesn't "slip thru the cracks" as can happen at some auctions.I do know one or two West Coast collectors who do collect such weapons,but the proven history will dictate the price above whatever it will bring in condition. So there you have it...;I do wish you the very best hopes that some other way will present itself to you aside of parting with such a family jewel; I know you must be agonizing over the prospect of such decision. Tom Burness >
Question: Do you have any information about a 1862 Peabody action rifle assembled >by Providence Tool Company in Conneticut. The gun is in 75% condition >and is chambered for .45-70. It is a gun that was made for the sporting >public and is in shooting condition. > >Greetings George,
Answer: Sounds like you have the main "homework" done on your rifle,but I'll elabor- ate a bit further with what I might know based on your information. Providence Tool produce the Peabody patented guns MAINLY as military weapons but their other guns include some interesting rifles such as the "Rough & Ready" the "Kill Deer",the "What Cheer" and the "Creedmore Long-range"(and Mid-ranges) all which have internal hammers and these names in large Gothic letters on the recievers (named for various shooting ranges). They also produced a sporting rifle with external hammer from about 1866-1875, 26"and 28" round bbls standard, sometimes with deluxe and/or checkered wood, and 45/70 is one of 4-5 production calibers.Fancy sights occassionally seen which will add significant value. I'll assume since you didn't mention the engraved Gothic name(s) on the frame,that you have the external hammer standard Sporting Rifle with standard wood,trigger, and sights...and totally original,not altered or converted from a military gun. Now value. If it is this latter gun,and in 75% blue/casehardening finish with equally fine std wood,the retail on it would be about $1500-ish at current time. These are popular as "big bore" target rifles and are moderately collectable as well.Most any antique arms dealer would offer around $1000 for it IF IT IS AS DESCRIBED.Selling it to the actual collector will bring more,but is difficult since the Peabodys are not Winchesters and collectors are less and harder to find easily. HOWEVER..if this gun is an altered military,or refinished,then the value is MUCH less,likely in the $300-400 retail range as a "shooter". Finally,if it is for sale,like any antique arms dealer,I'll make an offer if and when you make a decision on price.Let me know. Best of luck with it...Tom Burness
Question: I have recently inherited an Eli Whitney flintlock, with bayonet, ser. # >11618. It has been in my family since the '30s and appears to my untrained >eye to be in very good condition. It appears to possibly have been used in >hand-to-hand engagement and has been rather skillfully repaired. The gun is >not an item used by any ancestor of mine, and I am intersted in an approx. >value. Would sincerely appreciate any suggestions. >
Answer: You likely have a Whitney contract musket,but which model is to be yet determined.What is a clue is the 11XXX range # on the bbl,which is between the straps of the uppermost bbl band,and then may also have M.S. stamped on bbl for the state of Massachusetts,and a two digit rack # on buttplate.This then is the Model 1812 "Sea Fencible Musket" which was the name of a group of former sailors who were formed into a militia unit to protect major harbors in Mass in 1814,and later became known as the Coast Artillery. Depending on the ammount and seriousness of the repairs that you mention,your flint is worth somewhere between $1000-1500 retail,and a dealer will offer somewhere in the 65-80% of that ammount contingent entirely on the overall condition/originality. Like any antique dealer,my offer would be also in that "ballpark". Very best of luck with it, Tom Burness tomburness@foothill.net
Question: I recently acquired an 1860's-1870's 12 shot pinfire pistol that is in excellent condition. The weapon is approx. 11" long and 5 1/2" tall and is approx 9MM or 36 cal. The makers mark is 'J.CHAINEUX--BREVETE' and it has bluing in protected areas with the rest being a pleasant plum brown finish. The revolver is double action in perfect working condition with engraved wooden grips and a laynard ring on the bottom.The frame and cylinder also have a simple geometric design as well. I would like to know what it is worth if you have an idea. Thanks!
Answer:
Question: I have a small .22 caliber rifle marked Stevens. What can you tell me? Joe
Answer: Dear Joe, With what information you've sent,it would appear that you have one of Stevens' most prolific models the "Stevens Favorite Boys Rifle",which was made in large numbers from the late 19th century all the way up to the beginning of WW2. It would be difficult to know exactly when it was made without checking with Savage/Stevens Arms themselves,since no published serial number list is available,but the high probability is that it was made sometime between the two World Wars.As to value,it depends entirely on condition and which "sub-model" it might be(there's not enough info to determine this point),but except for a very few early variations,these are rarely of significant value,even in "antique fine" condition,they rarely go above $200. They are,however,collected with ardor by "Boys Rifle" collectors,and are among the major manufacturers of same and do make an interesting group,relatively easy and inexpensive to collect. I'm sorry I couldn't be more specific on your little Favorite,Joe,but they were a mass production gun of which little recorded info remains or is available and so I can only "generalize",and also,since it is post-1900(90% of their pro- duction anyway),it is a little out of my realm of knowledge. Very best regards, Tom Burness
Question: Charlievile Arms, made around 1770 to1790. stamped US. I beleave it to be the first US Long gun. I have one in good cond. Can you tell me if it is the first US goverment commissioned long gun and what it is worth. Thank you randy
Answer: You have a mighty good gun, Randy, if your Charleville is a U.S. surcharged musket. I'll assume what you have is a 1763 or possibly 1777 pattern of the standard French infantry musket with the "U.S." stampings,indicating its purchase by the rather loosely formed young gov't,to be issued,along w/other similarly purchased muskets,to the new army. ..So as you have already discovered,your musket is among the very earliest U.S. arms,predating the 1795 Springfield,which was the first mfg'd domestically.There are other such surcharged early flint muskets by other sources,but the Charleville is considered the most purchased and used in the pre-1800 era,so much so that the 1795 Springfield is almost a complete copy of the French weapon. Again assuming your musket is in relatively good shape and in its orig flint- lock configuration,etc,and is GENUINE,you then have a valuable piece of early Americana..worth well into the thousands,depending on condition. Hope that answered your question;your musket was likely purchased sometime be- tween 1777-1795...and certainly is among the very earliest of a military arm to be used by our nation.It has survived a long time;take good care so that it will survive another 200+ years.
Question: I have a 1865 Springfield muzzle-loader caliber 50-70 converted to trapdoor breach loader. Excellent condition, appears to have never been fired. What do you think the gun is worth?
Answer: Your Springfield conversion could be one of several different ones,value varying greatly,so an exact description as to model must be determined. Since you state it is a 50/70,and I'll assume this you know for certain,that leaves it out of being a TRUE 1865 Allin conversion,as they were 58RF...not 50/70CF...so based on that tid-bit of information,I'll further assume your getting the date of 1865 off the lockplate,which was the mfgr date of the gun as perc or as parts (if not completed as perc),but the IMPORTANT date is the one on the trap ass'y, which is likely 1866(also which will usually have 3 bbl bands)or 1868,1869,1870 all which are 50/70s.
The 1866(called the 2nd Allin conversion)was the earliest practical ctg conv of the CW muskets,and a truly "excellent" one...by collector standards..would be worth at least $1000..a "minty unfired"one upwards of $2000. If the trapdoor is marked w/the later date,in the "super" conditions it is worth slightly less,since there are more of them around in near unfired condition,but in a lesser "average" condition,the later ones command slightly higher prices due to being stronger,safer actions. By "more" and "less",this is perhaps $100-200 value.All these values are for totally original,unaltered,com- plete weapons,not anything of detriment to detract from collectability. It is of the greatest importance that the exact model be known,especially if it is a rifle-musket,a cadet,of a carbine...and the date on the trap(breech) as, for example,a carbine of the 1870 model, in "unfired" condition would be well in excess of $10,000..they are that rare.
Trust that bit of info will help in your determinations;there are several books that would show these guns at your local library,now that you know the proper nominclature..oh,incidentally,the 1868,1869,1870 dated guns are referred to as 3rd Allin conversions(altho' there are some who call the 1870 dated one a 4th Allin). Best of luck with your rifle, Tom Burness
Dave Taylor's Civil War Antiques Company has been actively engaged in buying, selling, and appraising items for over 20 years. We specialize in quality Civil War arms, accoutrements, photos, personal items, flags, uniforms, etc... Everything we sell is 100% guaranteed to be original and "as described". We issue photo illustrated mail order catalogs at $5 each, and our shop/gallery is open by appointment in Waterville, Ohio. Write us at Dave Taylor's Civil War Antiques P.O. Box 87 Sylvania, Ohio 43560. Phone (419)878-8355 weekdays (419)882-5547 eves Fax is (419)878-8365 and e-mail is davetaylor.civilwar@sylvania.sev.org
Question: I am in posession of a model 1840 sword with scabbard which I > > believe is Confederate. The guard is not cast as well as the > > Federal models and is marked by a former owner in roman like > > numerals on the base of the guard. The only identifiable > > marks are "R&C" on the blade beneath the guard. The only > > thing that bothers me about it is that at some recent period someone > > covered the original grips with a black rubber type substance > > that appears soluable in acetone. > > > > Is what I have Confederate?
Answer: I HAVE NOT SEEN PHOTOS OF YOUR 1840 HEAVY CAVALRY SABER WITH "R&C" MARKING BUT AM FAMILIAR WITH THE MARKING AND KNOW IT TO BE AN IMPORT FROM ONE OF THE GERMAN STATES. AS FOR THE RUBBER-LIKE MATERIAL ON THE GRIP, I WOULD GUESS IT MIGHT BE ELECTRICAL TAPE THOUGH CAN NOT STATE WITH CERTAINTY SINCE I HAVEN'T SEEN THE SWORD. BOTH UNION AND CONFEDERATE FORCES USED THE IMPORT "WRISTBREAKER" SABERS MADE IN EUROPE. THEY WERE SENT TO NORTH AND SOUTH IN LARGE NUMBERS, SO THERE IS A CHANCE THAT THE SABER WAS IN FACT USED BY A CONFEDERATE,... BUT THERE IS A GREATER CHANCE THAT IT WAS NOT. THE VALUE WITH THE IMPROPER GRIP WRAPPING IS PROBABLY IN THE AREA OF $225 TO $275, THOUGH I WOULD NEED TO SEE THE SABER TO EVALUATE IT PROPERLY.
SIGNED, DAVE TAYLOR